More responses about the Apple - DVD article.

I'm not sure if they are negative or positive... but
both are interesting and informative.

I'm leaving these two letters (and my corresponding (intertwined) responses)  on the same page because these two people CC'ed each other, and the messages are related (though obviously different). Both people are sincere and very "nice" with their response.

Mike's response seems to add the most information about what he understands (knows & believes) the differences between the DVD drives & disks. His insight and opinion is, at least in-part, valuable and well worth reading.

Dear Andy:

Thank you for your response, it is appreciated and informative. I will answer it the best I can. For clarification, I have changed the color of what you wrote to red, with my response in black (or blue on the web) – beneath your words.

Right up front we'll say we represent both the Panasonic DVD-RAM product line and LaCie so we had more than a passing interest in your analysis piece in the May issue of Replication news.

I don’t know what capacity you "represent" the companies you named... do you sell their products, develop for them, train people about them, install them, or what??

If you only sells these items, then my opinion (right or wrong) will be distinctly different than if you representation is on one of the other levels. I don’t mean to sound disrespectful or negative, but I have little faith in "sales" people – especially those in the computer industry without a fair amount of hands-on technical knowledge, training, and/or experience. Many sales people merely mimic what the big companies tell them. The market is flooded with products (in all industries) that sales-people swear will change your way of life, is the best, or has none of the problems the competing products have. I personally have spent quite a bit of time talking to and trying to help educate both "ignorant - mimicking" sales-persons, as well as many end-users.

Because of the Panasonic activities we are more than familiar with many of the activities and programs that are being carried on by Apple (most of which can't be discussed until they make the announcements-- watch out for the July MacWorld in NYC).

I don’t have any knowledge with what is happening in the MAC world, but then most end-users don’t know either. IMHO (In My Humble Opinion) that is part of MAC’s problem. People feel comfortable knowing what is coming, what is being planned, and that what THEY (as individuals) think, feel, and want are being taken into account in future developments. They want to know they are NOT wasting their money on what they are buying today. I’m sorry, but Apple does NOT give me, or many of their end users, THAT security. Which explains so much of the migration and loss of market share. I do understand that if YOUR business is based on selling and/or otherwise "representing" these products, that you are forced (at least in part) to follow the closed-lipped, tied finger, no-telling mode until the "official" release of the information. That is another difference between Apple and Wintel.

1. Apple's contribution to the software development dearth -- Actually Panasonic has developed relationships with more than 45 of the authoring and editing software providers who fully support DVD-RAM.

Key wording there – "PANASONIC HAS" – you didn’t say Apple! From this, I have the following questions:

1. Of the 45 such providers, how many are MAC only? Of the remainder, how many are not WINTEL compatibles?

2. It is obviously to Panasonic’s advantage to have as many people supporting their drives as possible. Has Panasonic chosen to go after the Wintel market ALSO? If the answer is yes, in which market (MAC verses Wintel) do THEY project the highest over-all sales in?

The majority of these products fully support the Apple platforms because the majority of the creative work is done on a Mac (of one flavor or another).

This is a pretty off-handed comment. I guess that depends on what you consider "creative work.." Most of the HUGE – best selling - games in the market were developed on Windows based systems (with some rendered on SGI systems), not MACs in either case. I spent nearly 10 years licensing and working with game developers… few used MACs, and I think many of them would be considered pretty "creative"!

The Internet Web page development is dominated by the Wintel market, with the UNIX/Linux platforms being the next highest. What percentage of MAC based web development do you think there is? How about web hosting on a MAC? It is real rare to have a MAC system hosting sites. And yes, there are people developing web sites on the MAC, but not nearly the number of people or web pages that are developed on the Wintel systems.

Quark Express has a larger Wintel installed base than MAC. Adobe has also followed suit, with a higher Wintel installed base. That pretty well covers most of the previously (up to 1992) dominated MAC world of Magazine, Newspaper, and Advertising design and lay-out. There are MORE Wintel developers than MAC – there MAY BE more EXPERT MAC graphics developers, as they have likely been at it longer than Wintel people, but the numbers ARE changing! Call ANY service bureaus, I don’t know (and haven’t found) even ONE that does have at least one Wintel based machine, and many of these companies are migrating to the Wintel world because of upgradability, price, and flexibility (which do NOT exist as much in the MAC world). Touch most of the video capturing and digital cameras, and the majority are connected to a Wintel based computer.

I concede that the MAC world PROBABLY (not sure on the actual numbers) dominates the FILM OUTPUT section of the industry… however, even most graphic artists, service bureaus, and printers have been actively moving to the Wintel world for Film output, so the MAC dominance may be short lived.

So I doubt that Apple has contributed to the dearth but rather has been a major reason good software titles are finally emerging.

When you say "finally emerging" about a company that basically STARTED putting computers in to schools and homes nearly twenty years ago, it sounds like an oxymoron! I don’t mean to continue sounding pessimistic, but a APPLE is the reason that they are in the position they are in! There are no excuses, and no other way to look at it. Have you, or any company you have ever worked for, tried to develop either hardware or software for APPLE or the Macintosh? When such development is mostly HUGE companies (like Panasonic) on the hardware side, how does a small company break into the market? I’m a touch out of the loop, but the last I heard things haven’t changed a lot in the last ten plus years… a company has to BUY their right to develop for the MAC (from Apple Computers)… not true in the Wintel world.

The second most popular platform for these people is SGIs.

Please define "these people." The SGI (Silicon Graphics, Inc.) was (maybe still is?!?) the undisputed champ for graphic rendering and full motion video editing and production. And, the starting price of these high-end machines was $25,000 to $250,000!!! The price shoved most of the market out – only the rich and serious could afford to play with SGI’s. However, people in the movie industry with big budgets spent millions on the SGI systems. When the fast Pentium II and dual processor systems hit (from Intel), programs like 3D MAX hit for the Wintel market, huge hard drives, RAM prices fell… the SGI systems are becoming less popular and powerhouse Wintel systems are slowly taking over that market too!

2. Proprietarism -- We can't really comment on this statement because it is best answered by Apple. They have been innovators and trend setters for the entire systems industry in a number of areas but perhaps Steve does have a slight blind spot in this us vs. them positioning. The people (creators and business people) who use Macs -- including the notebook -- swear by them because of their ease of use and performance (especially the new systems).

I) am NOT disputing the ease of use. MAC people seem to have fewer "use" problems – in part because of the design, and in part because of the severely limited choices in flexibility and upgradability. The performance, upgradability, power, flexibility, end-user control, and ability to find an expert in rural communities IS MY PROBLEM WITH APPLE! No one is disputing Apples’ (especially Steve Jobs’) innovativeness or ability to set trends… however, their ability to solve the concerns listed above and maintain a share of the market they helped create IS THE QUESTION!

3. Hollywood's push -- It is interesting to note that again there are two platforms most of these organizations use in their development activities -- Apple & SGI. That's at the productivity level. At the management level it is probably a totally different picture.

If you want to limit "Hollywood’s push" to the development activities, that’s fine. But, in truth, I believe that where or how the end-product is created in much less important than WHAT the product is developed for. Hollywood is primarily developing for TV top sets and the Wintel world, as those are the areas that happen to be selling now and taking up floor space in retail outlets and video stores around the nation.

4. The LaCie DVD-RAM drive does support the PowerPC and the drives are readily available. (more on the conundrum later)

Fine, but what about the MAC II systems? And the original PowerPC’s??? Someone put a 500+ cubic inch motor in a Gremlin (real small car), by pulling the front seats out and re-arranging stuff. So, just because something is possible, it doesn’t mean that it will work correctly. My understanding (which is admittedly limited) is that the fact that one will work in the system isn’t the problem; but that through-put, bus speed, caching time, and over all performance is really the issue. Just because it CAN BE DONE does NOT mean that it will work correctly. When the term "PowerPC" is tossed out, consider that the "PowerPC" was first released in 1992/93 and will react a lot differently than one built in 1998! I would think (and maybe that’s my error) that the problems are easy to logic out.

5. essentially a high-density CD-ROM disc -- I take issue with this point especially where it concerns DVD-RAM. RAM reads and writes just like a hard drive (randomly) whereas CDs write sequentially. That's a major difference.

And, I take exception with that. First, I did NOT compare a DVD-RAM disc (or drive) to a high-density CD ROM disc… I compared a non-video DVD disc to a high-density CD ROM disc. Secondly, comparing the DVD-RAM drive to a hard drive is REALLY OFF BASE!!! That’s like comparing a chain saw to a car, because they both have engines! A hard disk drive is MUCH faster, has multiple platters, multiple heads, higher RPM’s, environmentally sealed (from dust and debris), larger capacity (comparing high-end to high-end), and the hard drive doesn’t use laser technology for the read/write heads. The DVD RAM drive MAY be better than the SyQuest drive, but appears to be just as limited. Whereas, the CD-R (re-writable CD – standard size) has the advantage of working in STANDARD CD ROM drives!!! I would hope that the DVD-R, DVD-RAM, or whatever name a company wants to call a re-writable DVD disk will allow cross-platform capabilities and downward compatibility.

6. Mastered properly -- This is a continuing problem as to the mastering techniques that are used. If you look at a DVD movie like Water world you see what good quality mastering is. The intensity and definition of the water is outstanding. Yet in other (dare I say more successful films) have been absolutely butchered when they were prepared for DVD production.

Mastering things properly is a challenge in ANY format. That is one of the reasons a few different replication houses send developers to me – to master their CD-ROM discs. There is more to mastering a disc (of any type) than simply "burning" the data or information on a flat hunk of plastic. I can only assume that mastering DVD discs can be just as challenging. Good hardware and software, combined with a basic testing & tweaking phase, and someone with the knowledge and ability to problem solve and deal with problems can greatly reduce the problems.

7. Mac vs. Wintel CD-based software products -- Obviously there are more. Apple counts their sales in hundreds of thousands and Wintel products are sold in the millions. Of the approximately 350 million systems in use around the globe I would doubt if 10% were Macs. It's a fact of life that companies will produce software for the bigger market more rapidly.

Exactly

8. Once DVD+RW is available -- After two years and five press conferences announcing the products you STILL CAN'T buy one...anywhere. IF 3.0GB drives are shipped in Q3 as Sony's latest announcement states you have to realize that in Q4 DVD-RAM manufacturers will begin shipping 4.7GB drives to OEMs. In lateQ1 of Y2K units will begin appearing in stores. Sony & HP have stated their4.7GB drives will be available in late 2000 (a press conference or so back). It is great that the announced the next generation product BEFORE they shipped first generation product.

Ok – and what is the benefit and flexibility of the DVD-RAM drive?? How (other than space) is it better than the CD-RW drives? Are they as fast as the 2 gig IOMEGA JAZZ drives (which can easily be DriveSpace-3’ed, or otherwise compressed to hold 3.5 to 10 gigabytes of information effectively)??? How would the DVD-RAM drive be better than removable or external hard drives?? Only by cost… maybe. Is the DVD-RAM drive able to span discs? Where can the discs be purchased? At what price? What is the speed of the DVD-RAM drive? Can it handle a direct audio/video feed without delays, loss, or hick-ups? WHO NEEDS the DVD-RAM drive?

I do not have any idea WHEN the Wintel DVD+RW drive will finally be released. And, based on history, the DVD-RAM drive will NEED all the head start it can get! Because, I would easily believe that the DVD+RW drive will exceed the total number of installed units within 6 to 12 months from its release… and that the discs used in the DVD+RW drives will be available in virtually every retail outlet that sells Zip & Jazz disks (very similar to the current market share and availability of the Jazz compared to the SyQuest). Think about it… how many retail outlets have the SyQuest disks available? Of the installed user base, how many people even know what a SyQuest drive is? And how many YEARS was the SyQuest out BEFORE the IOMEGA Zip and Jazz drives??? How many graphic artists do you know that DO NOT have one or both of the IOMEGA drives??

My point is, that the DVD-RAM drive may be out, available, and ready to use in the MAC world… but, unless it goes cross-platform, it will NOT go nearly as far as the Wintel version will. My point is, that the Wintel version will quickly follow the old rule of thumb regarding supply and demand, and the price of the drives and discs will quickly fall in the Wintel industry if the drive is accepted. In the MAC world, there is currently no other option, and may never be… therefore, the supply is a controlled – proprietary – supply, and the prices will likely remain higher than they could or should.

I would NOT run out and buy a MAC because of the DVD-RAM drive! Furthermore, there are DVD-burners (writers – NOT re-writers) currently available in the Wintel world.

People with products on the shelves are ringing more cash registers than people who have another press release.

If you are limiting the comment to re-writable DVD discs, of some format, capable of working on some platform, I agree. That is correct today… and probably for a few weeks, and possibly for a few months. However, consider the numbers in 6 to 12 months after the release of a Wintel version… odds are the Wintel version will outsell (and profit) the MAC only version to-date total by that time! Consider the hundreds of movies that didn’t bring in what a movie like Titanic, Independence Day, or Star Wars brought in during their first week. You are right, products released (possibly prematurely, without the necessary marketing hype, thought, and planning) do bring in some money… but I believe the general public have seen numerous times how companies that take their time to release a project can quickly capture the market.

At a point people have to deliver and I would suggest you should look at SHIPMENTS of the DVD Forum based products as compared to the proposed alternatives. Check the numbers today. Check them at the end of the year. People still vote with their checkbooks and credit cards.

I agree, and since the release of Windows v3.1, the "votes" have predominately chose the Wintel world! Walk into any store… count the number of Wintel technicians (compared to the same in the MAC world). The numbers do, indeed, speak for themselves… so of us made the change early in life, in part gambling on the longevity and push of Bill Gates, in part opening our eyes to how Apple was making decisions and really controlling their market!

I hope that the comments make since, and help you both understand and see where I am coming from. You make a living selling or "representing" a portion of the MAC world. Maybe it is good to (and for) you, and the company you work with. And, maybe, the same amount of energy and thought in the Wintel world wouldn’t produce as much of a living for you… then again, you are marketing to less than 10% of the computer industry (based on your own projections of the MAC installed user base).

Sincerely,

Terry E. Mercer

Mike:

Thanks for your response. I will try to respond to the best of my ability. Just so you understand, I do NOT claim to know everything, but I do have nearly 26 years of hands on experience, accumulated knowledge, and assorted training. I will put your message in red coloring, and my response in black below.

Thank you! I found that quite a few people have taken the time to read and respond to THAT article in particular. Controversy doesn’t concern me, as I don’t know everything… but I feel it is good, because it makes people think, consider, and evaluate what is being said. Some points I can defend, others I can merely question, while others I’m ignorant on (and about) and try not to misled people.

Dave is a very smart person, and seemed to have a descent grasp regarding the OLDER systems, for which I believe him to be very accurate.

Agree, I have heard of that also… regarding the DVD-RAM systems. HOWEVER, I still don’t believe that the added flexibility, upgradability, and longevity have been addressed by you (or, more importantly, Apple Computers). Once virtually any technician can work on a MAC system, adding to it (internally), upgrading it (beyond adding RAM memory and changing out the hard drive), and change out the motherboard & CPU to the latest version… then, and ONLY THEN, will I spend more time evaluating the MAC systems and telling people that those type of systems are a wise investment over time.

Two questions: First, are you willing to send me a sample of the MAC/PC solution(s) for evaluation? If it works as well, and as easily as you state, then I would gladly write about it… if there are problems, I would notify you about them before I published anything negatively (allowing you and/or your company to help solve the problem, explain what I was doing wrong, or to at least have an opportunity to comment in the article – before it was published). Secondly, what are the system specs for this solution(s)? What are the minimum requirements for any operation? And for minimal optimum performance?

What are the costs and details?

Understood – and I agree – it isn’t because MAC development software isn’t available, it is because there are fewer developers wanting to spend the time or money developing for the more limited market (i.e. MAC).

I don’t agree here. I think that publishers chose not to because they don’t believe the MAC market is big enough to spend the extra time or money to develop the product for that market. Keep in mind, most people that develop initially ON a MAC either have a MAC version, or a Hybrid disc… almost never a Windows only version. After all, if they developed on the MAC, the MAC version would mostly be finished and done BEFORE the Windows version. Logic dictates that developers move from the MAC world to make money from a larger installed base, and that few windows only versions of programs are followed by MAC versions (as you imply).

Encoded correctly for what? If they work on the Wintel and/or Desktop world, then maybe the discs don’t need to change… but how the drive is reading or interpreting the information on the disc?!?!?

In your defense, I understand what you are saying, and DVD life isn’t perfect in the Wintel or TV-top worlds either. Which leads to why developing an industry wide standard for TV-tops, Wintel systems, and MACs – that made them ALL compatible with each other, would have been real nice, and more welcomed by the general public… and more profitable, and fewer hassles, for your company and others like you.

Answered above.

I first heard DVD around 1995 Comdex/E3 shows, when CD-ROM was first really taking hold (after quite a few years of it being available). You are right, all of the kinks have NOT been worked out, and because of that, I’m not sure players should have been released… unless there is a way to flash the BIOS on the drive, or otherwise make the drive compatible with whatever the current coding standard is (or becomes).

Yes, and it took nearly three years for the CD-ROM drive to become a "standard" – by the time the 2X drive was released, the industry finally found a standard ground. When Windows95 was released, it was another 6 months (or so) before writing long-file names on gold masters was something that could be done. The price of CD-ROM burners have dropped from the $12,500 we spent on the early Philips 501 (If I remember correctly) 1X writer, to the $200 specials that have better software and faster writing ability available in Wal-Mart, Cost-co, Sam's Club, etc.

I am not new to the industry, and have mastered well over 1,000 CD-ROM discs that went to market, and burned over 2,500 discs to date. I have worked with over 100 different companies that develop software in the US, and about a dozen over-seas. So, please don’t think that I’m ignorant of the past history of the CD-ROM, or have no basis for most of my opinions.

What programs are better in the MAC world – that do NOT have a comparable (even from a different company) version in the Windows world? I challenge you to name ever one, three or more would be really impressive. Please try… I’ve been trying to find something, and have challenged many people on this, no one has been able to completely stump me thus far. Maybe you will be the first.

And your point is? I’m not trying to be a jerk, or overly negative on Apple. On the contrary, I can name a few positive things about the MAC system… because I have been a hands-on technician in BOTH WORLDS! I haven’t dealt with MAC’s recently, and am admittedly out of date… but NOT THAT FAR. As the negatives are still the same.

Just because something was the first, and some of the end-users are buying it… that doesn’t mean that it is necessarily "satisfying the user needs." Having a PC version will help a lot, and if the same drive will work on either platform (on install), and lives up to the performance claims, then I would definitely be willing to evaluate it and do some testing. If it can deal with everything I throw at it, within the stated limitations of course, then I would gladly back it. Being first has its place… being the best, easiest, and more versatile for the money is what I want to support.

I concede to your knowledge on this, as I haven’t personally experienced or tested these. I have heard others say basically the same things… and believe everything you wrote above to be true and accurate. Thank you.

This sounds awesome, and I would love to test this technology and write about it to (for) others.

If I understand correctly, LaCie’s solution is SCSI (or SCSI-2) and therefore cross platform, in the same fashion as IOMEGA’s Zip and JAZZ drives. That is great, and I honestly didn’t know that until YOUR email! Please let me know if I made a wrong or incorrect assumption. I am very serious about testing and evaluating the LaCie drive and media solutions.

Please understand that your companies "solution" has little to do with Apple, as you state that your drive is available for BOTH THE MAC and PC! This is very important, and I believe an integral part of LaCie’s success in the future! Your marketing plan, what little I know of it, seems to be based on a well-thought foundation that MUST include the PC market (like IOMEGA did).

I believe LaCie’s "situation" is definitely not bleak… but I’m honestly convinced that Apple’s future is as bleak as I (and others) have "painted." Unless some big changes are made addressing the issues (upgradability, flexibility, and open technical support to the local store owner & trained technician without a big price tag attached) Apple will be lucky to maintain their small market share! People are getting tired of hearing how they threw away their money on both MAC systems and integrated PC’s!

Sincerely,

Terry E. Mercer

P.S. – I am serious about testing and evaluating your drive, and writing an article about it.

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Start of Mike's Letter
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